during the 70ies Italy was a santa barbara of conflicts - left right all the *isms were farting around full blow - and we also had heavy heavy quarrels and so then to be vetted out of "students" rallies was a regular regular fate .. let's sink with that: if you scream and DEMONSTRATE hard way your destructive opinion about a nation, somebody could ask something about these program of violence and hatred ... I do remember during the intifada time, when ARAFAT was the ruler of all that mess, the mayor of our lyceum invited all the protestors to take a plane and to go there to offer a real help to the people they love so much. I think it is still a nicer program than the one to selfie oneself and share on instagram the hate for America which in the meantime is giving a peaceful land where to rant your hate and mediocrity and in saturady cheap booze in a safe club.
Ignoring the fundamental principles of Hamas and just to be inclusive, all other Islamist groups of Dar Islam. This is the real guiding principle the meaning is “The Islamic State”. Now in theory those of us who are Jewish and Christian should be able to pay the Jizya and not lose our lives for failure to submit to Islam. Western people want to apply our thinking to this. Sorry but that doesn’t work. If I’m pissing you off or you think I’m full of it I say read Hamas current charter and take a stab at Al Quran and then get back to me. To these Islamists this is the gospel, really. Oh PS and BTW the death cult masquerading as a religion teaches quite clearly that to kill Jews all Jews everywhere is their equivalent of a mitzvah. Hag Samaeh.
I'm VERY PLEASED to read this, being against the "Anti-Semetism" EO of my cherished Presodent DJT, and a strong supporter of our 1st Amendment protections.
I also feel that Israel must prove to be a US ALLY to America. A few suggestions ...
1) Israel must show respect for our law by meeting the same Foreign Lobbyist requirements as all other foreign nations by every AIPAC lobbyist to register w/FARA. Basic respect.
2) Israel must not offer Israeli citizenship to any sitting member or employee of any level of the US federal or state gov'ts. And NO dual citizenships should be held by any member of Congress or upper levels of govt. This must apply to ALL dual citizenships of any nation.
3) Israel must start to be an ALLY of the US, not just a recipient of aid. That means RECIPROCITY. Israel should not receive gifts of aid, but LOANS of aid. It's an upper-middle class economy now, it can pay its own way. Perhaps offering some super-fantastic, valuable patents to Israei-invented software, donated to the US for its exclusive use and benefit to America, would serve as partial payment.
4) NO more arms sales to Stalinist, Muslim Azerbaijan, to enable them in their quest to finalize the 1915 genocide of little peaceful, Christian Armenia. And Israel must formally recognize the Armenian Genocide of 1915-23. You would think that Israel, of all countries, would empathize with other small genocided people, and 90% of their populations wiped out! For shame, Israel!
It's a good start, respectful, and would elevate the international opinion of Israel in the eyes of many nations.
From a 50-year supporter of Israel's right to exist ....
This is merely a presentation of the law as it currently exists.
„The" law can (be) change(d), and has (been) frequently, otherwise we would still everywhere have „law“ of master and servant,monarchs and subjects.
One should, if law gets changed, only be careful and ensure that it doesn't also affect and harm the "good ideas“.
Prerequisite for this would be to come to at least trying to agree on what could be defined as good and bad ideas, having fundamental enlightening discussions on that instead of simply resorting to "the law" as if "the law" existed in and of itself and was not man-made and dependent on humans.
Or, what some other feels as being „obscene“, I would maybe merely laugh about or yawn at.
Or, expressing you want to grab every woman at the pussy, seems to be not „obscene“. You can become president with/ despite it.
And in some (democratic) countries, the laws are stricter, and expressions of "opinion" are more severely restricted and limited, but often, or even predominantly, those who adhere to "good ideas" are more likely to be affected by the restrictions and punishments…
This not by/ as (just/ primarily) a consequence of "the law," but of *political* attitudes…!
"Democrats" could have put an end to the activities of Hamas fan students long ago, but they didn't, even though it was legally justifiable.
Instead, they "interpreted" the law in favour of their policies…
Or, in many countries, one only needs to label the most utter and dangerous nonsense "religion" and insist on one's "religious freedom."
Non-Hamas/non-Muslims also readily make use of this, think of „Radical Christians“.
Meanwhile, so-called "blasphemy" is punishable... and ridiculing dangerous nonsense is forbidden…
"The law" simply doesn't exist as/from itself, so the question arises whether one can describe it "neutrally," demand its "acceptance“ in every case, and whether one must obey it in every case.
Not everything that is „legal“, is just.
Also one thing that MLK could have been telling a lot about.
Being here on a visa is a privilege, not a right. The visa holder is expected to maintain civil and law-abiding behavior at all times. Many of these protestors have broken laws, ranging from assault, to property damage, to interfering with the operations of business (and universities). This is not a free speech issue. They need to be deported. Those chanting from the river to the sea should be deported because the acknowledged interpretation is death to all Jews in Israel. If you are a visa holder can't obey the law, you must be deported. Go to Europe where such misbehavior is allowed.
Thank you for that thoughtful and informative post. Overall, I agree with what you say, but couldn't an argument be made that if someone present in the USA on a visa does something that, if done before the visa was granted, would have resulted in refusal of the visa, then the visa could be revoked?
Also, expulsions for American citizens who defile campuses. Every last one of those "protestors" who invaded Hamilton Hall last year, wrecking school property, throwing graffiti on the walls, and--most of all--terrifying campus personnel who worked in the building, should have been expelled. Full stop. No other "protest" group could have gotten off with nothing more than a proveribal slap on the wrist for these actions. If your flag is flying on "Jews" and "Israel," out the door and academic history forever tarnished. And, much to everyone's surprise, this action did not "free Palestine." But that was never the intention, now, was it?
This is all fine with me. If I have any problem with it, it is that it seems to omit what should be OBVIOUS about the Trump administration and the way it is integrated into the darker forces of US history, the American psyche, and the worst qualities of humanity. And this is something that ANYONE who wants Palestine to be a safe place for Jews should be 100% on top of.
Anybody who cares about Israel or who hates antisemitism should be able to clearly see that Trump and his minions do not care a rotting dead rat’s ass about antisemitism, Israel, or Jews except in very obscene and perverted ways. They are using antisemitism as a weaponized wedge to attack the most vulnerable as a way to ramp up to a full fledged assault on the rule of law by kneecapping and intimidating universities, laws firms, labor unions, and civil society. And when you put it in this context, anyone but the most traumatized can see that Israel, Jews, and antisemitism are just a sideshow. The real attack is on the rule of law because for authoritarian rule to profit and terrorize with impunity, it must corrupt, crush, and humiliate ALL those who might defend the rule of law: meaning the best and the brightest to be found in law firms, courthouses, universities, labor unions, churches, synagogues etc. And anybody who has studied the history of Jews knows that not only do their best traditions relentlessly nudge them to identify and stand with the outcasts, the strangers, the excluded, and the scapegoated, they are the ones with the most to lose whenever they find themselves in a godforsaken place without the rule of law.
Israel should be a safe place for Jews. Palestine should be a safe place for Jews. Berlin should be a safe place for Jews. Poland should be a safe place for Jews. New Jersey should be … too! …But NO place is safe for Jews or anybody else when there is not the rule of law and decent courageous people to defend it. When Israel first attacked Gaza after the horrendous massacre that took the course it did because the IDF was busy repressing resistance on the West Bank, a rabbi suggested I read Abraham Heschel’s “The Prophets” which is mostly extrapolations from the Hebrew Bible but which concludes with his assertion that the G-D of those prophets was not a god OF Justice tempered with Mercy, but was a G-D IDENTICAL with Justice and Mercy (a notion formally unknown in a world ruled by imperial terror personified by Gods of POWER).
The people supporting Trump are contemptuously oblivious to all this. A lot of them are Christian Zionists who want to scrounge up a red heifer and build a third temple (which would require rivers of smoking blood and terror, by the way) so that their version of Jesus could beam down to it as a landing pad from which He could kill all the pagans and the Jews (except for a hundred k or so who’d get baptized). And those are the saner ones! There’s a lot of people who are so fed up with life and pain that they just want to bring civilization crashing down on them like Sampson — as long as this also crushes the enemies they so despise.
Very good article trying to delineate between first amendment rights and the rights of a visa holder. While non citizens are afforded first amendment rights, the State Department as the overseer of Visas has wide discretion in the ability to revoke visas and thus deport. Any illegal behavior can be cause to remove. And there are specific terrorist laws that allow for removal even if peaceful( aiding and abetting a terrorist organization like Hamas )
Interestingly enough the headline cases going on right now with alleged deportations are less about the right to deport and more about legal due process in detention and deportation.
Thus the State Department today revoked close to 300 visas of those who took part of pro Hamas protests or were part of violent activity on campuses. Ultimately assuming fair due process ( not adjudication of any first amendment rights), these revocations will stand. And on a practical common sense or moral basis, if you are a guest in this country you shouldn’t have the right to protest against this country or support those organizations that are deemed enemies of the state. No country can or should allow for that without consequences.
during the 70ies Italy was a santa barbara of conflicts - left right all the *isms were farting around full blow - and we also had heavy heavy quarrels and so then to be vetted out of "students" rallies was a regular regular fate .. let's sink with that: if you scream and DEMONSTRATE hard way your destructive opinion about a nation, somebody could ask something about these program of violence and hatred ... I do remember during the intifada time, when ARAFAT was the ruler of all that mess, the mayor of our lyceum invited all the protestors to take a plane and to go there to offer a real help to the people they love so much. I think it is still a nicer program than the one to selfie oneself and share on instagram the hate for America which in the meantime is giving a peaceful land where to rant your hate and mediocrity and in saturady cheap booze in a safe club.
Ignoring the fundamental principles of Hamas and just to be inclusive, all other Islamist groups of Dar Islam. This is the real guiding principle the meaning is “The Islamic State”. Now in theory those of us who are Jewish and Christian should be able to pay the Jizya and not lose our lives for failure to submit to Islam. Western people want to apply our thinking to this. Sorry but that doesn’t work. If I’m pissing you off or you think I’m full of it I say read Hamas current charter and take a stab at Al Quran and then get back to me. To these Islamists this is the gospel, really. Oh PS and BTW the death cult masquerading as a religion teaches quite clearly that to kill Jews all Jews everywhere is their equivalent of a mitzvah. Hag Samaeh.
Is that your real name? Do you feel protected?
I'm not being sarcastic in asking. Just curious.
Hag Sameach.
Ruth
No not my real name nom de guerre/plume. I fear nothing but Hashem.
I'm VERY PLEASED to read this, being against the "Anti-Semetism" EO of my cherished Presodent DJT, and a strong supporter of our 1st Amendment protections.
I also feel that Israel must prove to be a US ALLY to America. A few suggestions ...
1) Israel must show respect for our law by meeting the same Foreign Lobbyist requirements as all other foreign nations by every AIPAC lobbyist to register w/FARA. Basic respect.
2) Israel must not offer Israeli citizenship to any sitting member or employee of any level of the US federal or state gov'ts. And NO dual citizenships should be held by any member of Congress or upper levels of govt. This must apply to ALL dual citizenships of any nation.
3) Israel must start to be an ALLY of the US, not just a recipient of aid. That means RECIPROCITY. Israel should not receive gifts of aid, but LOANS of aid. It's an upper-middle class economy now, it can pay its own way. Perhaps offering some super-fantastic, valuable patents to Israei-invented software, donated to the US for its exclusive use and benefit to America, would serve as partial payment.
4) NO more arms sales to Stalinist, Muslim Azerbaijan, to enable them in their quest to finalize the 1915 genocide of little peaceful, Christian Armenia. And Israel must formally recognize the Armenian Genocide of 1915-23. You would think that Israel, of all countries, would empathize with other small genocided people, and 90% of their populations wiped out! For shame, Israel!
It's a good start, respectful, and would elevate the international opinion of Israel in the eyes of many nations.
From a 50-year supporter of Israel's right to exist ....
This is merely a presentation of the law as it currently exists.
„The" law can (be) change(d), and has (been) frequently, otherwise we would still everywhere have „law“ of master and servant,monarchs and subjects.
One should, if law gets changed, only be careful and ensure that it doesn't also affect and harm the "good ideas“.
Prerequisite for this would be to come to at least trying to agree on what could be defined as good and bad ideas, having fundamental enlightening discussions on that instead of simply resorting to "the law" as if "the law" existed in and of itself and was not man-made and dependent on humans.
Or, what some other feels as being „obscene“, I would maybe merely laugh about or yawn at.
Or, expressing you want to grab every woman at the pussy, seems to be not „obscene“. You can become president with/ despite it.
And in some (democratic) countries, the laws are stricter, and expressions of "opinion" are more severely restricted and limited, but often, or even predominantly, those who adhere to "good ideas" are more likely to be affected by the restrictions and punishments…
This not by/ as (just/ primarily) a consequence of "the law," but of *political* attitudes…!
"Democrats" could have put an end to the activities of Hamas fan students long ago, but they didn't, even though it was legally justifiable.
Instead, they "interpreted" the law in favour of their policies…
Or, in many countries, one only needs to label the most utter and dangerous nonsense "religion" and insist on one's "religious freedom."
Non-Hamas/non-Muslims also readily make use of this, think of „Radical Christians“.
Meanwhile, so-called "blasphemy" is punishable... and ridiculing dangerous nonsense is forbidden…
"The law" simply doesn't exist as/from itself, so the question arises whether one can describe it "neutrally," demand its "acceptance“ in every case, and whether one must obey it in every case.
Not everything that is „legal“, is just.
Also one thing that MLK could have been telling a lot about.
Where does Trump suing someone who claimed the 2020 election was rigged fall?
This is a very well written article so that everyone can understand the differences. I stand with Israel.
Being here on a visa is a privilege, not a right. The visa holder is expected to maintain civil and law-abiding behavior at all times. Many of these protestors have broken laws, ranging from assault, to property damage, to interfering with the operations of business (and universities). This is not a free speech issue. They need to be deported. Those chanting from the river to the sea should be deported because the acknowledged interpretation is death to all Jews in Israel. If you are a visa holder can't obey the law, you must be deported. Go to Europe where such misbehavior is allowed.
Thank you for that thoughtful and informative post. Overall, I agree with what you say, but couldn't an argument be made that if someone present in the USA on a visa does something that, if done before the visa was granted, would have resulted in refusal of the visa, then the visa could be revoked?
Also, expulsions for American citizens who defile campuses. Every last one of those "protestors" who invaded Hamilton Hall last year, wrecking school property, throwing graffiti on the walls, and--most of all--terrifying campus personnel who worked in the building, should have been expelled. Full stop. No other "protest" group could have gotten off with nothing more than a proveribal slap on the wrist for these actions. If your flag is flying on "Jews" and "Israel," out the door and academic history forever tarnished. And, much to everyone's surprise, this action did not "free Palestine." But that was never the intention, now, was it?
This is all fine with me. If I have any problem with it, it is that it seems to omit what should be OBVIOUS about the Trump administration and the way it is integrated into the darker forces of US history, the American psyche, and the worst qualities of humanity. And this is something that ANYONE who wants Palestine to be a safe place for Jews should be 100% on top of.
Anybody who cares about Israel or who hates antisemitism should be able to clearly see that Trump and his minions do not care a rotting dead rat’s ass about antisemitism, Israel, or Jews except in very obscene and perverted ways. They are using antisemitism as a weaponized wedge to attack the most vulnerable as a way to ramp up to a full fledged assault on the rule of law by kneecapping and intimidating universities, laws firms, labor unions, and civil society. And when you put it in this context, anyone but the most traumatized can see that Israel, Jews, and antisemitism are just a sideshow. The real attack is on the rule of law because for authoritarian rule to profit and terrorize with impunity, it must corrupt, crush, and humiliate ALL those who might defend the rule of law: meaning the best and the brightest to be found in law firms, courthouses, universities, labor unions, churches, synagogues etc. And anybody who has studied the history of Jews knows that not only do their best traditions relentlessly nudge them to identify and stand with the outcasts, the strangers, the excluded, and the scapegoated, they are the ones with the most to lose whenever they find themselves in a godforsaken place without the rule of law.
Israel should be a safe place for Jews. Palestine should be a safe place for Jews. Berlin should be a safe place for Jews. Poland should be a safe place for Jews. New Jersey should be … too! …But NO place is safe for Jews or anybody else when there is not the rule of law and decent courageous people to defend it. When Israel first attacked Gaza after the horrendous massacre that took the course it did because the IDF was busy repressing resistance on the West Bank, a rabbi suggested I read Abraham Heschel’s “The Prophets” which is mostly extrapolations from the Hebrew Bible but which concludes with his assertion that the G-D of those prophets was not a god OF Justice tempered with Mercy, but was a G-D IDENTICAL with Justice and Mercy (a notion formally unknown in a world ruled by imperial terror personified by Gods of POWER).
The people supporting Trump are contemptuously oblivious to all this. A lot of them are Christian Zionists who want to scrounge up a red heifer and build a third temple (which would require rivers of smoking blood and terror, by the way) so that their version of Jesus could beam down to it as a landing pad from which He could kill all the pagans and the Jews (except for a hundred k or so who’d get baptized). And those are the saner ones! There’s a lot of people who are so fed up with life and pain that they just want to bring civilization crashing down on them like Sampson — as long as this also crushes the enemies they so despise.
Very good article trying to delineate between first amendment rights and the rights of a visa holder. While non citizens are afforded first amendment rights, the State Department as the overseer of Visas has wide discretion in the ability to revoke visas and thus deport. Any illegal behavior can be cause to remove. And there are specific terrorist laws that allow for removal even if peaceful( aiding and abetting a terrorist organization like Hamas )
Interestingly enough the headline cases going on right now with alleged deportations are less about the right to deport and more about legal due process in detention and deportation.
Thus the State Department today revoked close to 300 visas of those who took part of pro Hamas protests or were part of violent activity on campuses. Ultimately assuming fair due process ( not adjudication of any first amendment rights), these revocations will stand. And on a practical common sense or moral basis, if you are a guest in this country you shouldn’t have the right to protest against this country or support those organizations that are deemed enemies of the state. No country can or should allow for that without consequences.